Tasmania United Fc Forum |
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| DISCUSSIONS > State of the game. | ||
| Foxhawk | Date posted | Replies |
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I recently read the Tasmanian FFT plan and I would be keen to gather some peoples ideas on what they would like to see adopted as both TUFC and the FFT move into the future. I will write all of these up and personally deliver them to the FFT staff. Cheers Add comments |
12th Sept. 2009 | 35 |
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Foxhawkposted at 5:52AM on 21st Jul, 2009 If you ask them they will send it to you via email. Ask their admin. Foxhawkposted at 12:30AM on 28th Jul, 2009 I thought that I would kick it off with football structure in Tasmania. This afternoon I will present my personal view on the structural side of Tasmania football towards the future and feel free to bag it out! (As long as its constructive). When I feel we have some firm ideas in place I will write it all up and present a new topic to discuss. Once we have covered twelve or so topics I will prepare a presentation to send through to the FFT Executive. Cheers Foxhawkposted at 3:33AM on 5th Aug, 2009 First off - Statewide Premier League The FFT are aiming at setting up a new statewide premier league by 2013. Whats everyones opinions on this matter. Personally I think the FFT should be A-League and player development towards A-League motivated. With this in mind I think the FFT should focus on a Summer competition. I think all areas of the football in our state should follow this structure downwards with less formal off-season competition also being held by all clubs during the winter months for player development and match fitness. I would go for an initial structure of 8 clubs; Burnie, Devonport, 2 Launceston clubs and 4 Hobart clubs. Set for the first four to five years with reserves and youth sides playing in the local North/South senior competition. Once it is then up and going we can start to look towards further development. Ideas? ntguyposted at 4:20AM on 5th Aug, 2009 In my view it needs to start next summer to build on the interest generated by the World Cup and as soon as the winter code grand finals are over. I think it should be a 10 team competition and include junior development sides both in the north and the south of the state. So for me it is Burnie, Devonport and Launceston, + Northern Youth, Southern Youth and 5 teams from Hobart. The reason I am going for a 10 team competition is that I believe that the A-League has shown that 8 teams becomes very boring very soon. I would also leave the rest of football as a winter sport. This allows players to play for long periods a year which is the only way they are going to develop towards professional standard. galacticaposted at 8:44AM on 6th Aug, 2009 Yep I concur with you ntguy re; your suggestion for the structure as proposed by Foxhawk to create a state premier league. Furthermore it should be kept in place for the next 10 years minimum to have an effect. I am utterly sick and tired of these continual changes by administrators of both Aus Rules and soccer every time one or two clubs get cold feet. The competition is the ruler and if sides stumble give assistance but if they are unable to stand up with such assistance then drop them out and bring others in. Traditionally strong clubs cannot have all the say - they have to be made to respect the development of the game or get out(or not be included in the first place i.e. clubs should be legally bound by state comp licenses granted and option to sue should be considered against defaulters). I would say that in both codes there are only a handful who have shown that respect in the last thirty years because of; yep that’s right - parochialism. Foxhawkposted at 9:42PM on 6th Aug, 2009 I would go so far as to focus on setting a non-football standard for the competition, eg ground requirements in a similar fashion to similar leagues in England. I think Tasmania should aspire to have a competition one day that mirrors the English Blue Square. (Though with smaller clubs obviously). With this in mind I would say option the competition up to promotion/relegation of one club (north champion vs south champion) in five to seven years, however I would keep the ground regulations very stringent so that only the very best lubs who miss out on being foundation clubs have a chance of being promoted in the first ten years. This would give the others something to aspire to as they slowly develop better facilities as time progresses. galacticaposted at 8:56AM on 10th Aug, 2009 Yes seems feasible. Certainly there is a need to maintain consistency with a competition over 8-10 years so a correct assessment can be made of the impacts to the game in Tassie. Then they could look at whether some form of manipulation is necessary or maybe not even preferred to ensure that the game standard remains the same throughout north and south. I am not in favour of this type of AFL style interference and believe that if the strength in quality and attendances is shown to be in a particular area or location then that is where the best should congregate and be developed. Hopefully a statewide league like suggested would not need such interference. Foxhawkposted at 3:55AM on 1st Sep, 2009 I am currently putting together a draft document for the FFT with a few of my ideas listed. Personally I think that Tasmania needs a higher level of competition above statewide league in order to give players the opportunity to excel and to offer that platform between our statewide competition and the A-League. Now a number of people have suggested a Tasmanian team int he Victorian Premier League. Personally I am not too keen to follow this course as it relies on the assistance of another footballing body and secondly due to the added cost. I am sure this won't stop some Tasmanians from moving to Victoria anyway. Besides, what happens if the side gets relegated to the Victorian second tier? I think that Tasmania needs to look at establishing somthing that can work towards the development of senior Tasmanian players. For this reason I suggest the following compromise; Once the statewide premier league is established the FFT looks at tenders for the establishment of three new semi-professional clubs; either from existing clubs or new bidders. These three clubs would represent Greater Hobart, North Tasmania and the North West Coast. Foxhawkposted at 3:55AM on 1st Sep, 2009 In effect these three would become the 'old firm' of a statewide competition and would create an avenue for Tasmanian players to progress towards the A-League without having the added cost of relocation interstate. They would work hand in hand with both FFT, the TIS, local clubs and TUFC to help steer promising players towards national domestic competition, and perhaps also be a second chance for players who missed out on NYL sides. I think that the ideal setup would be something like this; Tasmanian Statewide Premiership North West Coast. Northern Tasmania. Greater Hobart. 3 Hobart Clubs. 2 Launceston Clubs. 2 North West Clubs. Under this could sit a Northern and Southern Championship of eight to ten clubs. At a later stage the winners of the Northern and Southern Championships could join the statewide league with their respective runners-up playing off for a third spot. Obviously the 'Big 3' Would stay put due to their overall role as development sides. Would be very interested to hear some opinions, both favourable or against.
Cheers galacticaposted at 7:58AM on 1st Sep, 2009 I like your motivation Foxhawk. Sorry I havent had a lot of time to absorb your reasoning logic so I have three comments at this time. 1 The compilation of area club numbers seems a bit lop sided. 2 Can you explain exactly what the "big 3" actually do - where do they play and who do they play? 3 Therefore (a) there should be another Hobart team in the Statewide Comp. (b) there should be two teams from Hobart in a "big 4" comp or maybe only two (1 north 1 south) with both playing in the Vic state metro comp as feeders to a future A League franchise. The reasons being due to the concentration of participation numbers and success from the existing southern teams. Foxhawkposted at 12:29AM on 2nd Sep, 2009 You make very valid points. I did make a few errors which comes from typing this up quickly at lunchtime without the benefit of my paperwork which was at home. My original idea had five from north and five from south. Hoverever I like your idea of having four instead of five. That way the north and south could each have a derby game. I will put up some more information today at lunch. Foxhawkposted at 4:57AM on 2nd Sep, 2009 Hello again. You were correct. My numbers were a bit off, I was originally going for 5/5 north and south and stuffed up when I wrote it down with a 'big 3' included in that number. However I thought I might add that having two Hobart sides is an excellent idea and I feel silly for not thinking about it. As mentioned above they could have a Southern Derby while Launceston and North Coast could have a northern derby. So it would be the ‘big 4’ of Greater Hobart A & B, Launceston and North Coast. Additional to these would be three of the current Hobart clubs and three of the current northern clubs. A total of ten sides and five from each half of the state.
Foxhawkposted at 5:04AM on 2nd Sep, 2009 What is the role of the 'big 4'? First and formost they would be a higher step for a footballer in Tasmanian Competition and provide another pathway towards the A-League. I would imagine these four clubs would work closely with TUFC and the A-League at developing highly talented Tasmanian players. At the moment any good Tasmanian player can expect to depart the state when they 'grow beyond' their local club. In a new statewide competition a talented player could go from their local club to a statewide club, and from there could be signed by one of the 'big 4'. Once there they would find themself working with higher quality coaches, better training equipment and with specialist training perhaps through the TIS. I am guessing that something like this would start with three current clubs tendering for the position in Hobart and Launceston and with a fourth being developed from scratch in the north west by the FFT. (Probably working closely with the northern campus of UniTas in Burnie). Foxhawkposted at 5:13AM on 2nd Sep, 2009 In such a system in time the southern and northern leagues could be connected to the statewide league through a promotion/relegation system. The 'big 4' would remain safe from relegation as a rule. Each season the northern and southern champions would be promoted while the respective runners-up would playoff for a third spot. This would keep the statewide competition exciting as three different clubs would try their hand each year at getting in the three 'safe' spots or even challenging for a top four spot. In such a scenario there would never be less than 3 clubs from the north or south. As clubs would keep their reserve sides, their would always be local competition still being played in the north and south. (probably with reserve sides from statewide leagues joining in). Its unfortunate that Tasmanians seem to think that Tasmania is so large. Foxhawkposted at 7:51AM on 2nd Sep, 2009 'so large' meaning 'too large to travel between hobart and dev/bur to play'. If Tasmanian Union can do it then we can too. The island isn't that big. Foxhawkposted at 5:27AM on 2nd Sep, 2009 Just in regard to Victoria; I think we need to stand on our own two feet and craft a competition that has respect from the FFA. We need to remember that a well developed statewide football comeptition with good player progression will actually strengthen our chances of getting and retaining an A-League licence and also having some local talent playing in it. We don't want people to think of us as Melbourne's third side, although at first we will obviously have mostly players from out of the state. Having a 'big 4' also offers some glamour to the sport in Tasmania. Something that can hit the back pages. I would like to think that 'local ABC' in 25 years would be televising at least one local match a week in full during the season. Not to mention how much it would benefit schools with local 'big 4' players becoming rolemodels and teaching some tricks to the kids. Then there is added weight to the argument for building a 45k world cup quality stadium in Hobart followed up by a 10k stadium in Launceston and eventually a 5 - 7k stadium in both Burnie and Devonport. galacticaposted at 7:44AM on 2nd Sep, 2009 Yes I take your point about Vic. What would be required to gain such a Tas pathway competition is some impetus from FFT to create consensus within the club fraternity. Perhaps this is where a co-ordinator influence like the TUFC might be prepared to engage on a designated contractual timeframe if the current options do not eventuate with admission to the A League in the interim. Certainly there is logic and reason in your concept.that can be planned strategically for implementation over two decades - including the World Cup in OZ (with a flow on to Tas) & up to 2030 for infrastructure allocations. tufcposted at 10:01AM on 2nd Sep, 2009 Interesting concept, and certainly worth considering. One concern I have: Don't you think the games between a "Big 4" side and one of the "non-Big 4" sides be a bit lop-sided? And even allowing for the occassional upset, you would expect a Big 4 side to win the league every time. None of the other 6 teams would ever have a realistic chance of ever winning the league. If I were an administrator or member or supporter or sponsor of one of those clubs, I would become discouraged very quickly!!! I guess the question is: what's in it for the other 6 teams? Why would they bother playing in a competition where the best finish they could hope for is 5th? Foxhawkposted at 12:57AM on 3rd Sep, 2009
Certainly a valid question. I think there are examples arround today that could demonstrate how this would not be a concern. Take Scotland for example. Just recently I went on a tour around Scotland right when the repetitious bs argument about Celtic & Rangers joining the EPL was in the media again. (Silly idea in my opinion). Anyway I discussed this with a number of Scottish people including my tour leader who is a supporter of Motherwell. (I discussed it with others in Scotland as well). Their reaction was all the same. Bad idea. Why? Their matches against the SPL's old firm are their day in the limelight, their chance at getting in the press and I might add that for their sponsors it would be their opportunity for Scotland-wide press. For them taking on Rangers at home and beating them was a massive thing. World-wide attention From the Tasmanian perspective; Firstly I will look at a small club. Lets say in fifteen years the Latrobe and Kentish regions of northern Tasmania establish a club based jointly at both centres (a la Rushden & Diamonds, Hayes & Yeading, Havant & Waterlooville etc). Two years later this small club, partly through starting with some good young talent, some experienced older hands and a bit of luck, manages to beat a southern side in a playoff after being runner up in the Northern Championship and gets promoted.
Foxhawkposted at 1:02AM on 3rd Sep, 2009 For larger clubs who are either regular members of the statewide league the more larger sponsors would probably still be keen to take part. More regular appearances in the statewide league would be more regular attention on that sponsor in the media. Not to mention he media attention locally if the ‘Motors sponsored Propect Knights’ beat ‘Greater Launceston FC’. My recommendation would be a mandatory 25 - 50% sell on clause for any player who proved himself enough to step up from a non-‘big 4’ side to a ‘big 4’ side. I would suggest this as it is likely that small clubs would not get much cash directly from transfers. This would be fantastic for the local sides should they have a young player move on to a ‘big 4’ side then progress onto TUFC or another big club. On top of this there would be bragging rights for local clubs who, working hand in hand with their local 'big 4' side and both TUFC and FFT, could say that they were the first side who a Socceroo played for. At the end of the day we need an ongoing local pathway for players from junior school football through junior and youth academies and clubs directly up to the A-League including fall back strategies for players who miss out on NYL sides but 'come right' in later years. ntguyposted at 5:06AM on 3rd Sep, 2009 I just went through the Adelaide United squad and there are only 6 locals in their squad of 21. South Australia has twice as many registered players as we have in Tassie. On those numbers we could expect to have 3 maybe 4 locals in our squad at any one time. The question I ask is what organisational structure is best going to identify and develop these boys? If they are going to make it they will be in the Youth Team by the age of 18, in fact the ones that are really going to make it will be knocking on the A-League team by then. What young kids need to develop is time on the pitch playing with and/or against good players. Rather than a complicated State League I would rather see 4 Hobart clubs, 2 NW clubs, 2 N clubs, 1 southern "youth" team and northern "youth" team making up a 10 team state competition. In the "youth" teams I would have say 4 semi professional footballers whose job it was to help develop the younger players. Obviously the TUFC Y-League and A-League teams would sit above the State League competition. galacticaposted at 10:36AM on 3rd Sep, 2009 I understand your idea of equality of representation from regions ntguy but the statistical reality is that probably there should be a commencing moratorium period of minimum 3years with say 5 south 3 north/n-west clubs and if we have a youth team probably Lonnie based institute of sport with a sixth team from the south. I would say that the premiers of the north and south divisional comps play a return leg set to challenge the bottom state league side not including the youth team. Furthermore I think it best that from a stability point of view it should be extremely difficult to qualify for such a state league and qualifying rounds should only be held every 2years. This way the teams therein can consolidate their finances and gain reward for extended effort over time rather than rely on knockout conditions. ntguyposted at 12:33PM on 3rd Sep, 2009 I can't find any reason for there to be a bias towards Hobart. The population in the North and North Western statistical divisions combined is the same as the population in the Hobart and Southern statistical divisions combined. Lets not bring parochialism into this after all we are trying to be united. galacticaposted at 9:04AM on 4th Sep, 2009 Exactly and that is why there is no parochialism in my comment simply statistical fact. The strongest clubs are situated in the south numerically and that is counteracted by having the youth development team based in Launceston. I believe that population density and club results point towards what I have suggested. Growth of a state competition will not come from weakening clubs that already perform. Let us not create division from supposition because all opinion needs to be aired and discussed. ntguyposted at 9:39AM on 4th Sep, 2009 Under no circumstances should a new state league do anything other than reflect where the people live. Slightly over 50% of the people in this state live in the north and the north west. Live with it. ntguyposted at 11:30AM on 4th Sep, 2009 Sorry Galactica, I shouldn't have been that blunt. The latest population figures I can find show the breakup to be 242,000 in the south, 139,000 in the north and 109,000 in the northwest. The north west is broken into two distinct areas, the one centred around Burnie has a population of 48,000, the other centred around Devonport has a population of 61,000. Obviously both of these regions would warrant a team in a statewide competition. Using the Devonport region population as a quota the Hobart region would warrant 3.97 teams and the Launceston region 2.28 teams. So based on population alone the split would be 4 Hobart teams, 2 Northern teams and 2 North West teams. If for some Hobart local football political reasons Hobart requires 5 teams then the quota would be 48,400 and would result in an extra team from Hobart and an extra team from Launceston. I am not averse to the idea of a 12 team competition and including 5 + a youth select team from the south and 5 + a youth select team from the north but I think that might be diluting the competition too much. kiallrposted at 12:29AM on 8th Sep, 2009 Why do people keep trying to make everything difficult? Why bother with complex promotion/relegation systems etc. Just set up a core group of about a dozen clubs, located in the key population areas. Each club should have its first grade, reserves and even a few under-age teams. That will cater for anyone in the state of any quality. Keep all other clubs and competitions as they are for the more 'social' players. As long as there is a decent school system, players will naturally feed into the nearest 'Tasmanian Premier League' club, starting with under 16's or whatever they have. From there they step into under 18's or under 21's etc. Then, if they are good enough, they play reserves or in the senior side. Ideally, from there, they will put their hands up for a spot on the Tasmania Utd list, or any other interested A-league club. Keep it simple. kiallrposted at 12:40AM on 8th Sep, 2009 And, to follow on from the 'extra tier' between TPL and A-League, incorporate a representitive fixture into the TPL season. say 4 teams (2 Sthrn, 1 Nrth and 1 Nrth/Wst). During the season they can play each other twice with a grand final after the conclusion of the TPL season. These sides are selected either on an 'origin' basis or simply by each players residential location. This will get the best of the best playing each other regularly, providing less of a gulf between the TPL and A-League. galacticaposted at 12:39PM on 10th Sep, 2009 Yep I like your thinking process kiallr. Your suggestions have a lot of merit and are worthy of further consideration. I hope that FFT is scrolling through this website from time to time to get an understanding of the concerned supporter base opinions for the future, because they seem to keep their lips zipped most of the year! galacticaposted at 12:33PM on 10th Sep, 2009 That’s fine with me ntguy. What I was alluding to is that we should not be getting too overcome with northwest representation for a few years yet - I feel the region should be considered at this time as part of a greater northern region. The reason I say this is because currently there are 210,000 residents in greater Hobart alone and the projections are that within approx. 15 years that could reach a quarter of a million , which means close on 300,000 in the southern region overall. I don't know what the statistical projections are for the northern region but currently Kingborough within greater Hobart has a population in excess of either Burnie or Devonport and Clarence, Hobart and Glenorchy cities each on their own have a larger population than both Burnie and Devonport combined. I am talking here of metropolitan populations not feeder country districts. As I understand it neither Burnie nor Devonport urban populations have reached 30,000 yet. ntguyposted at 1:24PM on 10th Sep, 2009 The figures I quoted both for Burnie and Devonport included the population within 30 minutes drive of the city centre. Both of these regions warrant a team in a statewide league especially as between them they have provided 3 state champions and 3 statewide cup winners in the last 8 years. galacticaposted at 9:09AM on 11th Sep, 2009 Don’t get me wrong I am not knocking the North or the North West and I take your point on recent statistics. However oldest club in Tassie will celebrate their centenary next year and they have won numerous trophies - it’s all how you interpret any figures. For instance in can take over an hour to get from one end to the other or one side to the other of Hobart and there is going to be 250,000 people there soon after 2025, which will be just after the World Cup in OZ. Anyway the crux of the matter is whatever can be realised as a state league will have to involve rationalisation and a plan of inclusiveness that will satisfy the main clubs as exist now. That will be as difficult if not more so than creating a unified A League team consortium. I see it as necessary and maybe there will be a watershed by a group getting together and going alone as a designated premier comp and take the matter out of the FFT hands. Obviously there will be conflict however it surely should happen irregardless of an A League team.
ntguyposted at 12:50PM on 11th Sep, 2009 If a future Statewide league is going to be a step up in class then there has to be some culling of sides and that no doubt will cause some pain. In Launceston for example their are five teams which is way too many for a population of 140,000 to draw from if you want good teams. My proposal for four teams from the North and North West removes 5 teams. One from the far North West, one from central North West and three from Launceston. It is a very severe cull, 55% of clubs miss out. The same should happen in Hobart if "we" are fair dinkum in setting up a good league. As far as population is concerned the North West is trending to flat line while the North is trending to grow at about 75% of the Hobart growth. With that trend, by 2022 the population in the South will just about have caught up with the population in the North. All we need is another jobs squeeze and Hobart bleeds population much quicker than the North so anything is possible. With a progressive government growth might even accelerate but I am not holding my breath. TC_CValeposted at 12:51AM on 12th Sep, 2009 The population of South, North & North West Tasmania should not be the basis for allocating teams in a statewide league, it should be on the participation rate, that is: how many players are competing each weekend in certain regions. No point giving an area a team if they have to bring in players from other areas of the state so they can field a team each week. Another criteria for teams should be: the amount of spectators that a team draws each week. No team will survive without supporters going to games every week. The world game in Tassie does not have the support required for a statewide league at the moment, be that supporters for home/away games, or more importantly financial support. TUFC are having trouble raising money and thats for a STATE based team in a NATIONAL football competition. The best thing to increase the awareness & parcipitation rate of Football in Tasmania would be to follow the A league's lead and change when Football is played in Tasmania, make it the same as the A League, play our game in Spring/Summer, and not winter when AFL is at its strongest. |
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Chuq
posted at 3:08AM on 21st Jul, 2009
I just checked their site - where is the plan exactly?
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